Brushless Trial

[Pumba]

Hey everyone not to sure how many of you know this but I have been granted permission to run a brushless setup in my car at non championship events so we had our first outing yesterday in Palmy it was a great days racing but that,s another story.

First up what am I using
ECS DE 10
Motor Trackstar 17.5 sensored
Donor Team Associated TC3
Batteries Nano Tech lipo 5200 35-65c
Weight of the car race ready 4.0kg
Final drive gearing 6.75
Cost of the motor landed in New Zealand from Hobby King was $41

The ESC was run in blinky mode which means it had no advanced timimg and the motor was also on zero we ran a 15 lap practise with the gearing at 7.93 and ran with Clays car which was running an RZ and his gearing was 9.5 final drive with this gearing the brushless had no chance of being competitive so we changed the gearing to the 6.75 as stated above.

Race one Placed 2nd in a 17 car field which was over 15 laps and the motor came off the track at 25.8 degrees
Race two Placed 4th in a 17 car field which was over 15 laps and the motor came off the track at 28.1 degrees
Race three Placed 5th in a 17 car field which was over 15 laps and the motor came off the track at 34.2 degrees
Feature placed 5th in a 17 car field which was over 20 laps and the motor came off the track at 30.5 degrees
I did do a few temperature readings off other cars and the readings varied from 39 degrees up to 104 degrees
In the race where the temperature reading was 34.2 I deliberatly pushed cars to see what would happen.

When I have the information of the lap times I will post those up for everyone to see.

Feel free to ask any questions.

Cheers Pumba 41B

Palmerston North RC Speedway Club
STOCKCAR RD 3 RACE 1 Main 2015-07-05 11:26:17




Position Laps Time Average Best Laps Leading Name
1 15 18:33.655 74.244 5/5.919 2 Shaun Wilton 85w
2 14 18:26.104 79.007 8/6.487 8 Pumba 41b
3 14 18:31.520 79.394 13/6.362 2 Darian 10p
4 13 18:29.604 85.354 7/6.142 0 Sam Gray 15w
5 13 18:29.870 85.375 13/6.568 0 Devin stonham 619p
6 12 18:33.580 92.798 7/7.257 0 Duncan 73T
7 11 18:24.258 100.387 8/6.735 0 Clay 96b
8 10 18:25.146 110.515 6/8.042 0 Hunter 9p
9 10 18:30.088 111.009 10/7.590 0 David Stonham 216P
10 10 18:33.520 111.352 8/6.908 0 Peter 57b
11 9 17:54.253 119.361 2/6.766 3 Matt Gregory 24T
12 9 18:09.637 121.071 8/6.866 0 Cody 29w
13 9 18:24.405 122.712 4/7.139 0 Cam Rollo 94w
14 9 18:27.873 123.097 8/7.740 0 Rob Rily 810t
15 9 18:34.716 123.857 4/7.145 0 Mark Mc 72p
16 7 17:47.233 152.462 4/6.609 0 Bruce Wilton 55p


Palmerston North RC Speedway Club
Stockcar RD 3 RACE 2 Main 2015-07-05 12:23:30





Position Laps Time Average Best Laps Leading Name
1 15 2:00.063 8.004 13/6.362 15 Shaun Wilton 85w
2 14 1:55.427 8.245 7/6.580 0 Sam Gray 15w
3 14 2:01.388 8.671 2/6.583 0 Devin stonham 619p
4 13 1:52.562 8.659 6/6.990 0 Pumba 41b
5 12 1:55.785 9.649 10/7.009 0 Cam Rollo 94w
6 12 1:57.091 9.758 2/7.265 0 Matt Gregory 24T
7 12 1:57.734 9.811 9/6.499 0 Darian 10p
8 11 1:54.359 10.396 5/6.932 0 David Stonham 216P
9 11 1:55.848 10.532 8/7.201 0 Clay 96b
10 11 1:56.076 10.552 8/6.222 0 Bruce Wilton 55p
11 11 2:01.547 11.05 4/7.848 0 Rob Rily 810t
12 9 2:00.875 13.431 9/7.464 0 Duncan 73T
13 6 1:22.014 13.669 2/6.660 0 Cody 29w
14 5 1:55.999 23.2 5/16.439 0 Mark Mc 72p
15 4 1:39.407 24.852 3/9.516 0 Peter 57b

Palmerston North RC Speedway Club
Stockcar RD 3 RACE 3 Main 2015-07-05 13:15:38



Position Laps Time Average Best Laps Leading Name
1 15 1:46.805 7.12 4/5.900 12 Shaun Wilton 85w
2 14 1:38.720 7.051 7/5.880 3 Sam Gray - 15w
3 13 1:42.712 7.901 6/6.140 0 David Stonham 216P
4 13 1:47.723 8.286 7/5.893 0 Darian 10p
5 12 1:43.721 8.643 6/6.770 0 Pumba 41b
6 12 1:43.812 8.651 11/6.000 0 Duncan 73T
7 12 1:45.721 8.81 3/7.012 0 Devin stonham
8 12 1:47.899 8.992 6/7.014 0 Matt Gregory 24T
9 11 1:46.711 9.701 6/7.008 0 Bruce Wilton 55w
10 10 1:41.721 10.172 4/7.010 0 Clay 96b
11 9 1:30.904 10.1 7/6.824 0 Cam Rollo 94w
12 9 1:38.823 10.98 6/7.918 0 Rob Rily 810t
13 4 1:47.824 26.956 3/6.000 0 Cody 29w

Palmerston North RC Speedway Club
Stockcar RD 3 Feature Main 2015-07-05 14:15:44



Position Laps Time Average Best Laps Leading Name
1 20 2:20.499 7.025 3/6.257 7 Sam Gray 15w
2 18 2:17.317 7.629 11/6.026 0 Peter 57b
3 18 2:20.945 7.83 14/5.898 12 Shaun Wilton 85w
4 17 2:17.470 8.086 12/6.276 0 Darian 10p
5 17 2:19.730 8.219 5/6.585 0 Pumba 41b
6 16 2:21.493 8.843 3/6.605 0 Cam Rollo 94w
7 15 2:16.333 9.089 8/6.658 0 David Stonham 216P
8 14 2:08.340 9.167 7/6.529 0 Bruce Wilton 55p
P 14 2:19.009 9.929 8/7.158 0 Clay 96b
10 11 2:05.868 11.443 7/8.351 0 Matt Gregory 24T
11 11 2:16.716 12.429 6/8.095 0 Rob Rily 810t
12 6 1:42.916 17.153 3/7.457 0 Devin stonham 619p
13 4 2:17.869 34.467 2/10.544 1 Duncan 73T
14 1 1:03.402 63.402 6/999.000 0 Hunter 9p
 

[danhamers]

Will you at some stage be trailing this setup in a tt01? I ask this as i would estimate 50% of racers currently run tt01. Further to that the gearing options of a tt01 is limited compared to cars running 48 pitch gearing.

[rhyspunler]

What gearing is available for the tt01 please don't answer 19 to 21 tooth pinion.....lol

[aaron47s]

Hi guys, I've been talking to Pumba about this for a while now and although the paperwork has not been filled out, I am in the process of setting up an identical tt01 chassis to what I currently run.
This will allow side by side testing with two identical cars, gearing, suspension, batteries, weights and tyres etc. As most know I have been running my current tt01 for a number of years and have accumulated a massive amount of data in that time, including lap times on most north island tracks etc.
It will be an interesting trial of which I will supply full data on BOTH cars, and once sorted will have both test cars available for other drivers to do back to back comparisons after meetings have been completed.
Cheers, Aaron Young, NZRCS Stockcar technical rep

[danhamers]

Cheers aaron that makes more sense to me, for rhys
Here you go these can be achieved by a tt01 accorrding to the manual.
19/61 8.35
20/61 7.93
21/61 7.55
22/61 7.21
22/58 6.85
23/58 6.56
24/58 6.28
25/58 6.03
25/55 5.72

[aaron47s]

The internal ratio of a tt01 is 2.6/1
Given that the following applies
61 spur to 19p = 8.35, 20p = 7.93, 21p = 7.55, 22p = 7.21

[aaron47s]

I'm too slow typing my ratios Dan lol

[rhyspunler]

So reading between the lines the 17.5 brushless is about the same grunt as a 23 t RZ or am I wrong? What's faster higher or lower sorry it's ages since I worked this stuff out years ago or had someone I could talk to about it ....lol basically I have forgotten

[danhamers]

Not really. If you were running the same motor in the car the lower the final drive ratio the higher the top end speed (heats up motor a lot more, less acceleration). Most tracks you would blow an rz in a race if you went under 7.8. It really depends on how much torque the 17.5 produces as it may be capable of running a much lower final drive ratio giving it more top end speed,acceleration etc

[Pumba]

I've only done the one meeting with the brushless Rhys but the gearing is the big thing if you geared the brushless the same as an Rz you would probably be lapped in a few laps they don't seem to rev as hard.We changed the gearing to the biggest pinion I had and was much closer in speed just waiting for the lap times to see how close trouble is the motor ran so cool that we could have probably gone at least another 4 or 5 teeth on the pinion and it would have been faster than a worked Rz which is not what we are really trying to achieve.

[Pumba]

Heres my second report on the brushless trial
Was a bit of a mixed bag really car went fine on the Friday night pre race test (up and down the drive way) but when I went to start the first race the car had steering but no go took a while to figure out the problem as I have never had a sensored system before and all it was was the sensor wire had come loose and was the problem so I only managed to do two of the five races the 1st race the car was on the pace but the sensor wire cam loose again and the car stopped on the 13th lap after the race the motor was 30.3.The last race of the day we completed the race and topped it off with the win the race was 18 laps long and the motor was once again 30degrees. The gearing we were using for this meeting was 6.38 car was fast off the line and around the corners but still lacked a little in the straights the car was wind off the end in a good hit which was good to see if the motor would take some punishment.Positives the motor runs very cool and so far has not required anything doing to it Negatives the sensor wire coming out and the speeds from the 17.5 is to great as the gearing could still go lower which in turn should make the car faster.


Race Results for Heat:16 Round:1 Stockcars
Position Car # Name Laps Time Fastest
Lap Average
Lap
1 15 61B SHAYNE ANNAN 18 2m15.858 5.907 7.548
2 3 222C RYAN 17 2m24.060 6.573 8.474
3 12 94W CAM ROLLO 16 2m19.758 6.518 8.735
4 5 75B ADAM 16 2m20.577 6.174 8.786
5 4 57B PETER O'SULLIVAN 15 2m16.645 6.381 9.110
6 16 13b Cameron MITCHELL 14 2m17.065 7.046 9.790
7 19 99V TANYA CHAPLOW 14 2m18.445 6.957 9.889
8 2 999C JASON 14 2m22.011 6.629 10.144
9 6 41B RICHARD ALEXANDER 13 1m56.494 6.071 8.961
10 18 69V ANDREW CHAPLOW 13 2m27.348 6.022 11.334
11 14 413S DAVE SMALL 13 2m30.186 6.890 11.553
12 11 15W SAM GRAY 13 2m39.710 7.708 12.285
13 13 74S COREY SMALL 11 2m41.632 8.899 14.694
14 17 113B ASHLEIGH 10 2m31.162 9.632 15.116
15 9 26L STEVE DAVIES 8 1m48.582 10.020 13.573
16 10 51V JOEL MURPHY 8 2m41.311 8.052 20.164
17 8 24B JAYDEN TAMANUI 3 0m26.072 5.700 8.691
18 1 299gm LINDSAY MCQUILLAN 0 NO TIME 0.000
19 7 96B CLAY ALEXANDER 0 NO TIME 0.000
20 20 51L ROSS WILLIAMS 0 NO TIME 0.000


Race Results for Heat:20 Round:1 Stockcars
Position Car # Name Laps Time Fastest
Lap Average
Lap
1 6 41B RICHARD ALEXANDER 18 2m11.423 6.206 7.301
2 12 94W CAM ROLLO 17 2m23.020 6.121 8.413
3 9 26L STEVE DAVIES 15 2m11.665 6.318 8.778
4 2 999C JASON 15 2m11.727 6.752 8.782
5 10 51V JOEL MURPHY 15 2m15.384 6.632 9.026
6 19 99V TANYA CHAPLOW 15 2m18.992 6.679 9.266
7 5 75B ADAM 15 2m20.532 6.658 9.369
8 15 61B SHAYNE ANNAN 13 2m14.198 6.131 10.323
9 16 13b Cameron MITCHELL 13 2m15.516 6.888 10.424
10 4 57B PETER O'SULLIVAN 13 2m18.683 6.495 10.668
11 14 413S DAVE SMALL 12 2m19.937 6.207 11.661
12 18 69V ANDREW CHAPLOW 10 2m14.751 6.689 13.475
13 8 24B JAYDEN TAMANUI 10 2m15.428 4.449 13.543
14 11 15W SAM GRAY 8 2m14.099 10.637 16.762
15 13 74S COREY SMALL 8 2m14.252 8.227 16.782
16 17 113B ASHLEIGH 6 2m15.295 9.324 22.549
17 1 299gm LINDSAY MCQUILLAN 0 NO TIME 0.000
18 3 222C RYAN 0 NO TIME 0.000
19 7 96B CLAY ALEXANDER 0 NO TIME 0.000

[Jenny Tamanui]

Data sheet brushless.pdf (150.85 KB)

Please find attachment, current results From Pumba running Triall

[Pumba]

Day 3 Brushless trial
Levin club day 22 cars all in the same race lots of starting and stopping as would be expected on a nice tight track with this many cars as the times show the car is on the pace with the brushed motors.Just like to say at this point that all I have done to the motor is remove it from the packaging and fit it to the car.Motor uses less % of battery life than the brushed and runs cooler, the temperatures were higher than ever before but this did not seem to cause any issues and as I have said before there was lots of stop starting hittting cars that were stuck in a pile and the motor seemed to handle what it was dealt.
Not really much more to say I will be changing the 17.5 to the 21.5 for the next outing with the brushless setup just to see what the difference is also thanks to Bruce Wilton for suppling the 21.5 any questions just fire away. Cheers Pumba

[Pumba]

Day 4 Brushless Trial
Very small report today I swapped out the 17.5 to the 21.5 for this meeting being a HB club day very small because I only completed one race before the DE10 packed up anyway with the 21.5 set a zero timing it is way to slow after having drag races with an equal car running a silver can so I advanced the timing which is proably a good thing as that well eliminate the need to check timing on the motor the esc was set to blinky which is easy to tell as the led lights flash to tell you it is in blinky.Any ho the motor temp to start with was 22.8 and finished at 38.5 I placed 2nd in the race and got the second fastest lap in the race the fastest lap was 6.61 and my lap was 6.91 so this combo was going to be competitive but as I saids that is where it ended so I will have to wait till next time.

[Pumba]

Race day 5 for the brushless been a while since my last report sorry for the delay any how.This meeting was the BOP clubs Kenneth Redbull King memorial we raced the day before at the North Island champs and used the 23t brushed.So this meeting we were using a 21.5 Reds motor with the timing set at 40 degrees advance the reason I advanced the timing was the we had 2 identical cars mine with the brushless and Clay with a silver can and the silver can was faster by far than the 21.5 set at zero timing unforunatly I dont have the correct gearing with me and the car was not as fast as It should have been.The gearing I used was 6.634 and the car was about a second slower than the fastest lap in every race with the brushed cars doing high 5 second laps and the brushless doing high 6 second laps my placings ranged from 6th race one 6th race two 1st race three 5th race four and as the car was so much slower than some cars it was an easy target so got knocked around a bit the only time it slowed down after a hit was when it was hit headon by someone who's car was to fast for there lack of skills.The motor at its hottest was around the 45 degree mark so was still well within the optimum running temp oh as a side note over the 2 days of racing we counted 21 smoked motors and that was at both meetings so wasnt just 1 track that was harder on the motors.

[Pumba]

Race day 6 for the brushless trial HB club day so 6 races in total for the day gearing this time was 6.388 the fastest brushed cars were doing high 6 second laps with the brushless only a few tenths slower out of the 6 races the brushless car won 4 and got a second and third in the other races I left the body off the car as the motor is black so we let the sun heat the motor up and it started the races at around the 40 degree mark and after the race it was 52 degrees so still well within the safe heat range. The motor I am using was second hand out of an onroad car Bruce Wilton purchased so we dont know how much work that motor has done before we got it and we have done 13 races and done nothing to it yet.Not sure where this trial is heading but I will still run the brushless as long as I am allowed to see how long they last I hope this information is interesting to everyone. Oh well the year has now ended I hope everyone has a safe and merry xmas hope to see you all at a race track somewhere next year Merry Xmas everyone. Pumba

[saloon96b]

Race day 7 Shock horror TTO1 time thanks to Tom and Jen they have lent me one of there TT01's the car has Ali hubs front and rear Ali motor mount and an Ali drive shaft so it is pretty standard. I am running a 58 tooth spur and a 25 tooth pinion so the final drive is the same as the TC3 around the 6.0 final drive.Unfortunatly we didn't have the lap scoring system up and running so I'm unsure of lap times. Ross Williams was down for the day and in my opinion has one of the faster TTO1 with a 23t motor in it and was interesting to note that his car was visually faster down the straights but took roughly 5/6 laps to catch up half a lap as the brushless pulls out of the corners faster but runs out of top end speed another interesting thing was we ran 6 races at one and a half minutes and only used 13% battery life out of a 5800 lipo every race so I ran one battery for 5 races. Temperatures race 1/30.9 race 2/31.3 race 3/45.0 race 4/34.0 race 5/43.6 and race 6 51.3 having said that the last race we ran the car an extra 15 laps after the race had finished just to see what it did. One last note the motor we are running was second hand before we started to use it, it has done 23 races in a Stockcar and half and hour in a touring car so has done a fear amount on racing and I haven't done anything to it as yet. Next update I will have some time's to check out.

Cheers Pumba

[Jenny Tamanui]

Data sheet brushless.xlsx (156.4 KB)

Updated Brushless

[Pumba]

May 11, 2016 14:38:57 GMT 8 Jenny Tamanui said:

View Attachment

Updated Brushless

Race Day 7/8 We raced a total of 8 race's on the day I didn't use a cooling fan at all to see what the temerature would go to as you can see on the data sheet temerature was not and issue in one race I got stuck under another car and the temerature did come in hotter than normal but still well within the recommend safe running. Issue's to date with the car it has now done 16 races and it is still running the same spur gear we did have our first issue with the motor the car took a solid hit and the hot glue that is holding the sensor wire into the motor let go we did finish however and out of 37 races I have still not touched this motor.